There is a neat documentary out that studies the phenomenon of girl-on-girl bullying. A movement developed around the documentary called The Kind Campaign, furthering the shocking concept that maybe girls (and women) could be kind rather than horrible to each other. Unfortunately, when you hear about girls fighting each other or girls bullying each other, society often takes it to the gutter and well…I need not say more. Suffice to say, it’s not taken very seriously sometimes.
All of this goes through my mind as I read posts and articles detailing how there aren’t as many female CEOs or female “social media mavens” because women just plain aren’t mean enough to win the game (whatever that game might be). I’ve read posts that explain, in a seemingly knowledgeable way, that women aren’t as good at self-promoting because they aren’t as self-centered as men are (once again insulting men and women at the same time, it seems to me). Women aren’t shallow enough to care about something as trivial as success. Women are too nice and loving to worry about those cold worky type things.
Are you getting a little throw-up into your mouth there? Regardless of your gender? Yeah. I sympathize.
Let’s take these point-by-point, shall we? Oh, get some Tums first if you need it. OK, good.
Women aren’t mean enough to win the game
First of all, what does it say about our society that we accept, without argument, that the meanest people are the ones who come out on top? Is that really REALLY true? Is it only possible to land on the top of the pecking order if you stomp everyone else down? Surely there have to be at least a few powerful people out there who won their success by, say, earning it. Maybe there are even people out there who became successful because they *helped* people.
Also, I’m not really sure that it’s fair to men or women to say that women aren’t mean enough. I’m all for equality, but let’s be honest hear. There are PLENTY of cut-throat women out there. Like woah. There are women who will cut down anyone in their way just to get more power or publicity. There are women who are more than happy to sell their soul to the devil to get to the top. And there are plenty of men who aren’t mean who I’m sure would like to enjoy a modicum of success. In short, this argument appears to be pretty stupid to me.
Women aren’t as self-centered as men and thus don’t like to promote themselves
I know plenty of men who are actually so much the opposite of self-centered that I wish, truly, that they would think more about themselves, for their own sakes. I also know plenty of women who start the majority of their sentences with I, me, or my. On chats like Blogchat in Twitter world, just as many women as men use the hashtag to promote their own (sometimes completely unrelated) blog posts. On Facebook, I’ve seen status updates from both men and women that begin with something like, “Look how awesome I am!” And they aren’t even joking when they say it.
I would also posit that promoting oneself is not the same thing as being self-centered. One can promote him or herself while maintaining a good grasp on the fact that the earth, not the individual, is the center of the universe (some light historical humor for those who have gotten this far). Women can promote themselves, as men can, and can also refrain from becoming obnoxious. I’ve witnessed it. It’s possible.
So, again, I find this argument about why there aren’t more female leaders to be radically dumb.
Women aren’t shallow enough to care about success
This argument always confuses me. Since when was finding success in life and work shallow? Since when was hoping to benefit from hard work trivial? I don’t think men or women who strive for success should be categorized as shallow. Now, there’s a caveat here. If “success” is all you care about, you might have some problems. If success to you is just the collection of fancy material goods that you don’t really need, you might run into some problems. However, these afflictions I think are experienced equally by both men and women.
Dumb argument.
Women are too loving to care about cold worky-type things
The image of the soft, warm, loving wife and mother who is only interested in making the home as comfortable as possible is 100% fine. I think a lot of women (like me) have lost a lot of the art that goes into those skills, and I think that’s sad. That being said, “worky-type things” are not beyond the reach of most women. Women, by nature, are not little cubes of sugar that will melt in the heat of a professional environment.
Also, I know plenty of women who use the feminine qualities (as defined by society) of being kind and affection to further their work. I think of women like Lisa Petrilli and Molly Cantrell-Kraig who use their big hearts to infuse their businesses and their work with a great energy. I know men who do the same thing, by the way.
Crap argument.
So what’s the problem, then?
We’re still left with one last question. If none of these commonly cited arguments for why there aren’t more women leaders have been consigned to the abyss, why AREN’T there more women in CEO roles? Why aren’t there more women classified on the social media a-list?
Well that’s the rub, isn’t it?
However, ending the issue with a simple, “They just aren’t mean enough” doesn’t fit the bill for me. Does it work for you?
Image credit: http://www.flickr.com/photos/worldbank/6080628851 via Creative Commons
No, it doesn’t work for me at all. As you pointed out, there are plenty of women who are mean, Machiavellian, evil, cut-throat… I’ve encountered a few of them. I guess these kinds of stories make for good headlines and traffic, and maybe that’s why they keep coming around (much like the “why PR sucks” posts). I’m over them.
@Shonali Amen to that, Shonali. Unfortunately, the posts keep coming!
You are so kind to mention me, Margie – thank you from the bottom of my heart! It means a lot to me that you see me in the way you describe.
My theory is this, having done much spiritual work these past few years: that women are choosing to listen to messages that tell them to be more like men if they want to succeed in business, instead of listening to their heart and inner self. When I began to tune in to my true, inner self, what I heard was the message to be more of who I really am – and to release my feminine power rather than rely on my masculine power (every human has both). That’s when I started writing, and it’s changed my life dramatically!
As you know, I started writing about topics that were traditionally considered “feminine,” like vulnerability and love. More men responded positively to those blog posts than I ever would have imagined, through comments on the blog and personal emails to me. (Continued in another comment since Livefyre keeps cutting me off…) 🙂
@LisaPetrilli How lucky am I to have so many people leave so many wonderful comments that the Livefyre comment limit becomes a regular concern? Yeah, I’m THAT lucky!! 🙂
I think a lot of people are learning to embrace both parts of their heart, Lisa. If you look at the growing call among men to embrace fatherhood and time with their children, it’s parallel to women being advised to be more tough and distant in the workplace. Why we have been categorizing people as if it’s a black-and-white issue in terms of gender is really beyond me.
@margieclayman@LisaPetrilli Hey Lisa and Margie, Dhara here from Livefyre. Apologies for any inconvenience caused here with respect to the character limit. I totally understand what you’re saying here and you make a valid point. By any chance are you using Internet Explorer? If so, that is a problem that we’re aware of and working on as we speak. IE has some very unique elements to it’s environment that count each “namespace,” the blocks that contain the user name of the person you’re replying to, take up a significant amount of characters (sometimes 300+) and thus puts a limit on your comment length. FireFox has a similar issue, but to a lesser degree. If it’s neither browser, let me know, and we’ll be happy to look in to this for you.
(continued!) 🙂
What I would like to see in the world is women aligned with their true selves, giving themselves permission to do the work they are truly meant to do – whether that be as a CEO, a nurse, a mom, a small business owner, or whatever. If there are an equal number of men and women on the list, but none of them is aligned with their true self and doing work they love, then no one wins.
Everyone wins when we discover our True Path, when we live on that path and encourage others to live on their own True Path, and when we raise the consciousness and prosperity of the planet in the process!
Smooshes to you, my beautiful friend! ~Lisa
@LisaPetrilli I love what you are saying here about your true self, too. People can tell when you are not being true to yourself. Even if you say all of the right things, regardless of gender, people have a knack for telling when it’s not coming from your heart. The trick is being honest enough with yourself to recognize that lack of, dare I say it, authenticity.
What a cogent argument you have laid out here, Marge. As a former educator who was formed in part by the feminist 70s, who is now a business owner, it was a fascinating read. Somehow, in the schoolyard, at least it used to be this way, boys were just being boys when they bullied. But when girls did it, it was somehow different. They were, as you say, “mean girls.” And, yes, they could be mean. My daughter was on the receiving end in 6th and 7th grade. I think that girls at that stage are more advanced in their language skills than boys and so they can use words to inflict incredible pain. (My daughter recovered, is now a junior at Smith College and actually has blossomed in an all-girl school with plenty of professional caring women as role models.)
But I think the double standard and gender inequality exist even today in some fields. Politics is one. A female presidential candidate is called “hard-nosed” and “masculine” when she lays out her ideas, while the man is “strong” and “decisive.” You’d think we would have gotten past all that rubbish by now. We have made progress in education. I see more girls pursuing SMET studies (science, engineering, math and technology) but still not enough in CEO roles in business. Not quite sure what the answer is there.
And I don’t like it when we stereotype either gender. For instance, my husband is the least “meanest” man I know, but people respond to him because he isn’t egocentric (in fact his humor is quite self-deprecating), he reaches out, is a good listener, etc.—the qualities people seem to see and like in women).
I could go on and on here. This topic is so complicated. You have given me so much to think about.
@JudyDunn Hi Judy. I have a question because I am truly confused about something. You said that we don’t have enough women in CEO roles and what I am wondering is how do we quantify that?
How do we figure out how many is “fair” and how many isn’t.
@TheJackB Haha. 50-50. Would that be fair?
Seriously, what a great question. I think it’s a complicated one this because until society, culture, schools start having the same expectations for girls as they do for boys, how can we know? Are girls really not interested in owning and leading businesses? Or are they not nurtured and guided enough, given enough opportunities? Even by the high school level, at least in the schools I’ve done educational consulting work with, the DECA students (kids in business and marketing classes and projects), my experience is it’s been 70-30 in the male to female ratio.
I cannot say that I know the numbers of male to female CEOs in this country. I just know that it seems to be skewed toward men. How many women get MBAs as compared to men? I don’t know. And though we are past the talking Barbie dolls of the 70s (“Math is hard!”) I think, still, that we have these stereotypes and they start affecting kids at a young age.
I am loving this discussion.
@JudyDunn@TheJackB If you look at some of the stats I gathered in my first post for this series, you’ll notice that even though women seem to be (generally) performing better than man in school, (generally) receiving more post-graduate degrees, and (generally) climbing the ranks faster up through middle management, the number of female CEOs remains rather small. I am not sure there is an exact number or ratio to shoot for, but we should get to a point where a woman who receives a really superior education and excels can make it all the way to the top without echoes of, “I wonder who she slept with to get there.” It’s an attitude thing, I think.
@margieclayman@JudyDunn I think about this a lot. My daughter 7.5 going on 30 and wants to be a mommy or a teacher.
Those are her words and not something that we have taught at home nor do I think it is being taught at school. I want her to grow up and be what she wants. But I don’t want her trying to become a CEO because someone tells her that it is an equality issue.
I do agree that we should reach a place where people don’t expect that a woman has reached a certain point because she used sex to get there.
@TheJackB@margieclayman Jack, there is nothing wrong with being a mommy or a teacher! The precise (and wonderful) point is that your daughter has choices. I think that’s the word I’ve been grasping for. I never pushed Legos and toy trucks on my daughter and yet she knew that it was okay if she wanted to play with them. She loved dolls and Easy Bake ovens (okay that is really dating me), so I guess she was a typical girl (if there is even such a thing) and the performing arts was what she excelled at. But the possibilites were all there for her.
@LisaPetrilli said it well when she talked about girls and women finding their True Self. That kind of thinking didn’t exist when I was a girl and young woman. Just let your daughter know that all her options are open (bet she already knows this). And then just stand back and let her go. : )
@JudyDunn@margieclayman My daughter is dying to get an Easy Bake oven, not that it matters. I just hope her baking is better than my sisters were when they were girls.
@JudyDunn Yeah, that’s the point I’m trying to make as we go along here. As much as we talk about stereotyping of women, men are often cut by the same sword. For example, if you look at most TV commercials, what do you see? The man bumbles around and messes everything up, the woman, being the domestic goddess, gives a knowing glance and cleans everything up. Who benefits from either portrayal there?
When we say that success is based on who steps on the most people, we are missing so many leaders who have done things peaceably, kindly, and genuinely. It’s a real shame for everybody, and a real loss, too.
First of all, humbled and honored to have been included within this post. Second of all, I would like to echo what @LisaPetrilli had to say about each of us honoring our own voices as a means to elevate the Whole. One of my favorite quotes that I share often with the community at @Women With Drive Foundation: “You don’t have to be anti-man to be pro-woman.” – Jane Galvin Lewis.
As for why more women aren’t represented in the C suite, I’ll chalk that up to the time lag that happens as a result of any paradigm shift that exists in society. Consistent focus on the benefits of remaining faithful to one’s core will affect change (at least that’s what keeps me going). Excellence, transparency and effort yield results.
@mckra1g I love what you are saying here. Especially the “You don’t have to be anti-man to be pro-woman.” Wow. What a long way we have come! The paradigm shift you speak of I see as that old familiar “pendulum swing.” Women of the 70s— (and I was one: “I am woman hear me roar” and tee-shirts with, “A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle”) pushed that pendulum way over to the other side (which, frankly, I think needed to be done, in order to make that slow swing back toward center, which I think is where we are—or getting to—today.
I see my daughter with way, way more opportunities than I had growing up. I made it—I’m a business owner today—but basically back then we were told we could be three things (other than a housewife): nurse, secretary or teacher. I wanted to be an interpreter at the United Nations and was excited to see a SEVENTEEN magazine cover story on “Careers at the U.N.) I opened it up only to find that girls could be in the “secretarial pool.” And I was very good in sports in high school but it was before Title IX was passed in 1972, which finally gave girls an equal chance in high school and college athletics. Before that, there were no college athletic scholarships for women.
I am not whining here, just proud to have been part of the feminist movement and so gratified to see all the strong, smart women out there going for their dreams. : )
@JudyDunn@mckra1g Great comment, Judy. My mom marvels at the fact that my cousins, who play volleyball in high school, have their own equipment and their own uniforms. Her teams had neither most of the time. We have most definitely made progress, but the omnipresence of arguments like “Women are too mean to succeed” shows the gap that still exists between the genders.
@mckra1g@LisaPetrilli Boy, that’s a mouthful indeed, Molly. I really would be delighted if a person’s interior being became the measuring stick for how they are perceived and awarded in our society. it’s a very Star-Trekkian hope, but I feel like it could be achievable. That being said, I think that sadly we are a real long way away from that.
I like @LisaPetrilli ‘s comment because ultimately I think that is where we need to go. Each person needs to figure out how to capitalize on their individual strengths and passions and find a way to make a living using them.
And – this may be an unpopular statement – but I also have come to believe that there are some gender differences inherent from birth. I would have argued up and down against that when I was younger, but after 15 years in a corporate environment and also raising both boys and girls – there is a difference. The difference does not mean that either one couldn’t be successful in traditional opposite gender jobs, but they may approach it differently.
As for the “problem” – Part of it is that the “bosses” are predominately male and older. What they value and see as a “leader” is a somewhat dated stereotype. As we grow as a culture, I believe that will shift to evaluating individuals rather than trying to fit people into certain categories. I hope so anyway.
I have a fairly masculine behavior style – I am direct, decisive, and very logical. I rarely make decisions based on emotions. I excelled at math and science in school and the only two jobs I knew I wasn’t suited for were teacher or nurse.
I am also one of the 70’s children that are paving this way of women in leadership jobs that are also trying to balance home and family. I think we have an expectation of ourselves to do it all and be it all, which is incredibly stressful and difficult to balance happily. As a generation, I believe this is something we are learning to navigate – to forgive ourselves for not doing it all – being CEO and PTA president while making every meal from scratch and ironing all the clothes.
So what do I think is coming? More of a pendulum swing back to center like @JudyDunn suggested. We have swung pretty wildly to each end and hopefully are now slowing down to a sustainable expectation of people finding the path that allows them to use their strengths and follow their passions to benefit themselves, their families, and society.
Sorry for the length! Got a little soap boxy I’m afraid…
@MomInManagement That is a pretty interesting comment, Daria.
Why do we say that women make decisions based on emotions? Why is it a masculine trait to excel at science and math?
Inherent in the way we speak are assumptions that I think we really need to look at carefully. Do “women” really decide from the heart? Do all men decide without doubt and purely from the head? Seems risky to define people in these ways because then we are still left with people who don’t fit society’s expectations. They are the ones who have trouble being true to themselves.
A good point about current CEOs trending towards the “Older white guy” demographic. Perhaps as they retire things will change, but then we have to look at how they are training middle managers and potential replacements. That will be an interesting shift to watch in the business world.
@margieclayman@MomInManagement Here’s a better question: Why are you paying so much mind to all these silly stereotypes? It seems you’re the one who wants to define the genders. Most successful people don’t give two hoots about fitting “society’s expectations”. Maybe you should try it…
@danperezfilms Do you read my posts before making these comments or do you make assumptions, guess as to where I’m going, and then get your comment ready for me? I’m only curious as to your methodologies.
@MomInManagement@LisaPetrilli@JudyDunn Couldn’t agree more with your observation. For the past four years, I’ve produced short videos of all candidates for the Coral Gables Business Women of the Year awards luncheon. I get quality face-to-face time with about 18-22 CEO/Executive level women yearly and I’ve seen all types; from the Corporate “man-eater” to the sensitive, caring CEO. The times are certainly changing, women are coming on. Surely, it’s not where it should be but there have been improvements over the past few decades. If you look outside of the US, you’ll even find female Presidents. If we stop feeding these silly stereotypes, we just might realize that there are successful women AND men who don’t fall into either. And as a father of a 14-year-old girl, I can assure you that my daughter isn’t gonna be clouding her mind with these types of discussions.
Get out from behind the computer and step out of the imaginary social media world where the sheep worship the shepherds and go out and meet some REAL successful women in the corporate world and stop entertaining discussions about tired women stereotypes.
Just my two cents…
@danperezfilms@MomInManagement@LisaPetrilli Dan, I have met many successful women in the corporate world as owner of my own marketing firm for 20 years and as a member of several Chambers of Commerce. My point was not that they aren’t out there. And I am all for not feeding “silly stereotypes,” as you say.
But as an educator for 15 years, I can say that little girls still come to school (at least they did back in the early 90s, when I last taught first grade) with certain expectations of how girls are supposed to think and behave and what their choices are. Not all of them, but a good number of them. I think it’s media, culture, the way parents raise their kids and the options they show them. I am glad that you are showing your 14-year-old daughter that the sky is the limit. Good for you.And on “Business Woman of the Year”? I would like to see women competing toe-to-toe with men for Business PERSON of the year. : ) Why do we still have to be a special class?
My main point in all this is that girls need to know early on that they have choices, as many as boys do. Sure, my early adulthood coinciding with the feminist years of the early 70s may have something to do with my feelings and beliefs about this, but I feel there is still work to be done. : )
@JudyDunn@MomInManagement@LisaPetrilli Judy, my apologies. My “feeding silly stereotypes” comments were for the author of the post :)I agree with your observations unreservedly…
@danperezfilms No apology necessary. I am loving this discussion, especially hearing the perspective of a “guy.” : )
As you can see, this is a topic of great passion for me! I am writing a memoir right now about the feminist years (yes, I worked to try to get the doomed Equal Rights Amendment passed) and comparing how the 70s shaped me to the world my daughter came to adulthood in, so these things are on my mind right now. Thanks for the reply.
@JudyDunn@danperezfilms Dan, IF you read my post beyond the title, which is sarcastic and is meant to highlight the argument I’m rallying against, you would know that I am against stereotyping of any kind. Thanks.
@margieclayman I read your post which is more of an attempt to generate comments that will ultimately fail to generate any resolution. You’re not rallying against any argument because the majority of your post is based on folly. You’re right AND wrong at the same time. The bulk of my comment was directed at your own comment above:
“Why do we say that women make decisions based on emotions? Why is it a masculine trait to excel at science and math? Do “women” really decide from the heart? Do all men decide without doubt and purely from the head?” Huh???
Answer: Who cares? Everyone does what they do for their own reasons AND women and men are just engineered different. Period.
You really need to cut back on your reading and try “experiencing” more. Nuff said.
Hi Dan, I’m not sure if you’ve spent much time on Margie’s blog overall. Often her goal IS to generate comments and discussion. That is one thing I think long time readers like myself and others appreciate. Its a discussion, a true social media engagement. I like coming here and getting a whole variety of perspectives.
Yes in reality we are all equally unequal. Some people are more attractive. Some people can run fast. Others can do fantastic analysis in their heads. Still others can create works of art that will be enjoyed for centuries after their passing.
My take on this post is to get people thinking, especially about our subconscious assumptions. We all make them, and not just about men vs. women. One question that was raised by @JudyDunn above which you didn’t answer. Why do we need Business WOMAN of the year? Why can’t it be Business PERSON? As long as society feels the need for the distinction the playing field isn’t even.
@danperezfilms@margieclayman
@danperezfilms You’ve crossed the line, Dan. By a long shot.
@NicoleFende@JudyDunn@danperezfilms Yes, my goal is to put the question out there and see where people are on it. To converse. It just so happens that instead of inviting folks to a coffee shop, I invite people here. If you want to write your own post about it I invite that. I’m just trying to raise issues that I find interesting that I don’t see many other people talking about in an even-handed manner.
Hello Margie,
I am so glad I get these wonderful Wednesday nuggets for I have a social networking website that was created in order for “Girlfriends” to meet.share.inspire. I write inspirational, encouraging words for women (now men have gotten a hold of the writing and are partaking in our conversations). I welcome ALL!
I believe it’s our core belief that has to change – we were taught from very early on that we should keep our mouths shut if we have nothing nice to say. There is a fine line – I believe in the Power of the Word – and it’s how we use our mouths and our words. We can get everything we want with kindness and most importantly LOVE!
I believe that you don’t have to have the label of CEO to be an example to others – if you have a chance check out the website created for women- http://www.makegirlfriends.com –
In gratitude for these very powerful words of encouragement,
Would love to feature this story on MakeGirlfriends.com
Nancy
@makegirlfriends Hi Nancy,
Very true. Power does not have to equate to mean power. It can also be the power of passion, the power of kindness, and the power of love. And it’s true that you don’t need to be a CEO to influence people, but in this particular case the arguments I’ve seen along these lines have been about how women aren’t often CEOs cuz they just aren’t tough enough. That’s the myth I wanted to debunk.
I appreciate your offer of wanting to feature my story, by the way. For now, I am trying to keep this series centralized here.
Thank you for your great comment! 🙂
Sigh. I don’t think there’s just once answer to this but maybe some of the skills are being taught to boys and not to girls. I had this conversation a while ago with a friend and when talking about the disparity in pay, my response was that maybe us girls can learn to negotiate salaries better. (I recently read a piece that backed this up; men are more likely to ask for raises than women.) But then my friend asked, “Why aren’t women being taught these skills?” Good point.
@ifdyperez It is a conundrum, isn’t it? Sometimes we are so enmeshed in what society expects of us that we don’t even notice it!
@margieclayman I love these Wednesday discussions! I read all the comments, and love the different perspectives coming out.
On the one hand, I have seen the so-called silly stereotypes first hand. My college math professor said to one of the other female students, during class (Linear Algebra) that and I quote “Girls can’t do math”. Myself and the female student complained to the department head and nothing was done.
As a mom to a 3 year old I get sooo frustrated trying to buy toys. She LOVES Thomas the train, but even at three they are in the “boys toys” section. Really!?! I can’t find Thomas the train girls clothes either.
On a more positive front I see high school girls playing hockey and thinking nothing of it. I asked one I knew recently if her boyfriend thought it was weird she played. I got that teenage look and the answer, No why would he?. It made my day!
As a credentialed actuary I see the new entrants to the profession pretty evenly split between men and women. When I was considered for a CFO (that I did get), the issue was not my gender but my age.
Bottom line, we aren’t there yet, but we sure are making headway.
@NicoleFende That’s a great response, Nicole. Recently there was a video being passed around of a little girl, probably, I don’t know, 5 or 6, who didn’t understand why she had to wear pink or purple clothes. Why couldn’t she get blue stuff? Why couldn’t she get trains and baseball bats? And why couldn’t boys get pink and purple stuff if they wanted to?
It was the dawning of a new age, and I was so excited to see that her parents weren’t hushing her or saying, “Aw, that’s so cute.” They were encouraging her. It was awesome and hopeful.