Debunking the Myths of Occupy Wall Street
This dream of a post is by my good friend Nicole Fende. Nicole Fende is President and Chief Numbers Whisperer of Small Business Finance Forum. As a credentialed actuary with experience as a former Chief Financial Officer, Investment Banker, and successful entrepreneur, Fende helps her clients reach their profit goals and learn how to effectively and enjoyably run the financial side of their business.
Picture taken by Mat McDermott
For the sake of full disclosure I would like you to know the following about me; I am a tree hugger, I am a capitalist, I recycle religiously, I own stocks, I don’t shop at certain big chains because of their labor practices, I worked as an investment banker, I helped found a fair trade association…
Get the picture? I straddle both worlds involved here. I’d like to believe that it makes me ideally suited to debunk the myths, and highlight the truths around #OccupyWallStreet.
Myth #1: There is one clear message
After I agreed to write this post for Margie I decided to start by identifying the message or goal behind #OccupyWallStreet. Should’ve been easy right?
Every news story I could find (and as Margie put in her post on Sunday there aren’t many) had different reasons, answers, and quotes. Look at the pictures of the event and you have the same problem with the signs people are carrying.
I was able to find a couple sites claiming they represented the self-proclaimed leaderless movement.
- http://coupmedia.org/occupy-vote.html (voting is still open)
- http://www.legitgov.org/Occupy-Wall-Street-Its-Objects-Issues-and-Political-Meaning
- http://occupywallst.org/
Myth #2: The Big Banks Created This Mess
The protestors have this partially correct. Yes the big banks and financial institutions were part of the problem that led to the housing crash. Yes they bundled things into derivatives and sold them as far safer investments than they truthfully were.
Now let’s talk about the 800 pound gorilla in the room. All the people who took out loans they couldn’t afford. Whether they thought they could refinance, they could flip the house, or just didn’t care, if everyone had kept paying on their mortgages we would not have had a massive default in home loans.
No one was forced to buy a home. No one held a gun to their head and said, “You know you can’t afford it, but sign here now.” Each person who took out a loan they couldn’t pay back (or chose not to when the mortgage went underwater) needs to take personal responsibility for their actions.
For the record my home IS underwater and we are still paying on time every month.
Myth #3: 1% of the U.S. population controls 99% of the Wealth
Many of the people marching have signs that say, “I am part of the 99%”. Or “99% of the wealth is controlled by 1% of the population – look it up”. Good advice, so I did (and you can too right here http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/)
You know what I discovered? Things are actually much better in the U.S. than 42 years ago! Families making less than $25,000 per year dropped from 29.9% in 1967 to 24.9% in 2009. That is a 16.7% drop.
The number of households that make more than $100,000 grew from 6.1% of the population to 20.1%! That is a 229% increase. Households bringing in more than $200,000 actually grew at a rate of 375%, going from 0.8% to 3.8%
Are there Uber Wealth people in this country like Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Steve Jobs and Oprah Winfrey? You bet, and none of them were born billionaires. They’ve worked hard to create their empires.
Please note that all income numbers were inflation adjusted so they are real comparisons of dollar to dollar buying power.
Myth #4: Wall Street is Satan
Really? I seem to have misplaced my pitchfork. Since I worked as an investment banker (albeit in Asia not the U.S.), I must be the devil incarnate.
I categorically dispute that just because someone works on Wall Street or as a corporate executive they had their soul amputated. People are people. Some are good, some are bad and you can find each flavor in every industry and function.
Myth #5: I Am Not Responsible
One message that comes through loud and clear from everyone protesting is that they have no culpability for the current mess. Not true.
Wall Street is merely the bookkeeper and banker for big business. Big business is big business because so many people buy their products and services. If you agree with any of the following statements you too are in bed with big business:
- I own an iPhone, iPod or other Apple product (Fortune 100)
- I’ve flown on a Boeing airplane (Fortune 100)
- I use Microsoft Office (Fortune 100)
- I buy Kraft Foods products (Fortune 100)
- I shop at a big box store or chain rather than a locally owned mom and pop (because it’s cheaper)
- I own stocks, corporate bonds, mutual funds or have a 401K
If you are really against big business stop buying from them.
Myth #6: The Rich Don’t Pay Taxes
I’m sure the rich wish that was true, just like I’m sure those with signs telling me to “Look it up” wished I hadn’t. You can play along with me here http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/indtaxstats/article/0,,id=133521,00.html
Households with income of $200,000 or more paid 51% of all federal taxes in 2007. Households with income of over $10 million paid 9% of federal taxes.
Myth #7: The Protestors are Poor
Do you know what I call poor? Living in a shanty town with no running water, an open sewer running right underneath the so-called walkway and food you hope hasn’t gone bad. Have you ever been to a place like that? I have, when I worked with fair trade groups in Asia.
Poor people don’t drink Starbucks, have laptops, use smart phones or wear designer clothes. Want proof? Just do a search online for #occupywallstreet images (or heck look at the picture above).
Myth #8: Wall Street Decides Where and When We Go To War
I’m really trying not to sound snarky here, but I think I’m going to fail.
People the U.S. Congress decides if, when and where we go to war. The President is the Commander in Chief. Wall Street is not mentioned in the Constitution.
Myth #9: The Solution is Simple
I actually wish this one was true. I wish we could just do ________ and magically everything would get better. However every action has repercussions and those must be considered before we decide on a solution.
Two Truths in #OccupyWallStreet
Truth #1: Too Big to Fail is BS
I was vehemently opposed to bailing any bank or financial institution out. In a true capitalist economy those who make bad decisions can and should fail.
Truth #2: We Need to Make Changes
Having lived and traveled all over the world I can confidently state there is no place I would rather live than in the U.S.. That said there are still challenges and inequities in the U.S. that we can and should address.
Final Thoughts
I agree that there are many problems which need to be addressed in our country. Instead of marching in a rudderless protest why not do something proactive? Why not take your time and energy and work on just one of the issues you see in a coordinated, cohesive manner?
Nicole Fende is President and Chief Numbers Whisperer of Small Business Finance Forum. As a credentialed actuary with experience as a former Chief Financial Officer, Investment Banker, and successful entrepreneur, Fende helps her clients reach their profit goals and learn how to effectively and enjoyably run the financial side of their business.
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First off, I’m disappointed that Margie would host this.
Hitting this point by point…
1. No, there is not one clear message; that’s because the problems caused by capitalism and greed cannot be put into a single category—they are pervasive and insidious. Woodstock didn’t have one clear message either. Neither did the civil rights movement. Neither does feminism. This kind of critique, incidentally, is a typical right-wing move that attempts to portray singlemindedness as correctness.
2. The big banks created this mess because they marketed to people who couldn’t afford to take out loans. They created a media culture in which those families were duped. Should those impoverished people have ben smarter? Yes. Did they have the power in the situation compared to a multi-trillion dollar industry who controls the social messages that shape the lives of humans? Fat chance. This argument is like saying that victims of date rape were wrong to trust men in the first place.
3. Nobody claims that 1% of the population controls 99% of the wealth. Show me where anyone really says that. Straw man. Next.
Aquameringue,
Thank you for taking the time to comment on my post, although I’m sorry you were disappointed in it. This is a complex and difficult discussion and I’m happy to have it happen.
#2 I take issue with your comparison to victims of rape. I’ve been a DV / rape counselor and have taught self-defense to women (for free) for a number of years. In the case of a bank loan you know how much money you have coming in and you know how many bills you have. It is simple math to decide if you can afford another bill
#3 Please reference the 1st and 3rd link in the article where they state the 99%. Plus here are just a few links to pictures of signs that say it.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kapkap/6189131120/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/shankbone/6164464278/ (this is the look it up one)
@NicoleFende
#2: Regardless of your analogy of choice, do you think business needs to have no conscience in giving out loans? The banks can also do “simple math” and decide whether it’s a good idea to give a loan. As it stands, they revel in foreclosing on people—hey, it’s free property for the bank! That to me is an unethical business. Also, note that corporate interests lead to the denial of education to the poor. How many CEOs sent their kids to public schools?
#3: There’s a big difference between saying that 1% controls “the wealth” and saying that 1% controls 99% of the wealth. The top 1% controls about 26% of the wealth, if I’m not mistaken. The top 5% control well over half the wealth. That’s plenty for me to hear it as a call for action.
@Aquameringue I am sorry you did not like this post.
I don’t think it’s a right-handed tactic, in this case, to note that there is not one key argument. In fact, the members of the movement have specified to the press that they do not want to have a single focal point as that would leave something out. Members of the press and people who are confused about the movement have complained about this particular facet because it’s difficult to wrap your arms around what exactly they are trying to do.
I think that your comparison to date rape in point 2 is a bit off. People in retrospect have noted they were pretty surprised that they were offered the kinds of loans they were. Many have even admitted that they knew in their guts that doing the loan as given was wrong. They went ahead anyway. I’m sure there are some who were taken advantage of, but there have been plenty of others who have said, “Yeah, this was a big mistake on my part.”
As for point 3, I believe that is written on the Occupy Wall Street site. They indicate that the “99%” are in contrast to the 1% who control the wealth. I was a bit surprised when I was researching the movement and saw that statement there.
@margieclayman
Journalists get frustrated by information that doesn’t come in bullet points because it’s hard to sell. Also, I don’t get the impression that corporate journalists have much impetus to cover this story in a light that is flattering to the protestors.
you are probably correct there @Aquameringue . I’ve only really seen the PBS Newshour give any time to the story. It’s interesting that the alleged left-leaning media is staying pretty mum. Maybe wealth is something the parties can come together on 🙂
@margieclayman
And my date rape analogy is more about victim blaming than about rape, to clarify.
@Aquameringue I understood what you were going for with the analogy, but rape is a sacred and extremely sensitive topic – I don’t want to stray into even using that analogy for linguistic flair.
@margieclayman
Point taken.
4. Wall Street’s entire purpose is to hoard wealth. If you want to get all religious with your Satan reference, then you’ll find that greed is a deadly sin, and pretty much precludes the salvation of the soul, according to some pretty major theologians and, um, deities. You’re trying to justify your own greed here by saying everyone does it.
5. For what it’s worth, there are those who make a conscious choice not to use certain products. Some people do manage to avoid all the corporations you talk about. For the many who don’t, it’s a question of lack of alternative, and no, that has nothing to do with the products being better—it’s about hegemony. We think about our choices and we resent the lack of options; we want to change that. That’s more than Margie’s guest author is doing with her argument that basically amounts to financial Darwinism.
6. The rich pay about one third of the tax rate that they did under Eisenhower. Can you really, really justify a salary of more than $100,000 per year for anyone? Let’s just cap earnings and be done with this. Incidentally, the biggest sin of the rich is convincing poor people that they might one day become rich too; that way, those in poverty are bafflingly arguing against their own interests, doing the rich’s dirty work for them, convinced that their own taxes are the biggest problem, when in fact it’s those with a million dollars in the bank who are keeping them down.
7. Of course the protestors aren’t poor. They represent the “normal” 99% of the population. I’d say about 15% of them are poor, given the numbers. Also, did you know that poor people can’t really afford to protest? It’s funny how those in power tend to stay in power…
8. Wall Street does not tell us when to go to war, but politicians in the pocket do. And the military-industrial complex does. And also, Wall Street’s financial brutality definitely, definitely provoked the attacks by those against whom we have been fighting. Why else bomb the WTC in 1993?
9. This is probably the only thing the guest author gets right. The solution is not simple. But the problem is radical, and no solution will work unless it is radical too. See #6.
@Aquameringue
#4 I think a discussion on religion is better left to a different time. I will freely admit I do like to make money – ethically.
#5. I believe we are closer on this issue than you realize. I would love to have other options to buy certain items, like running shoes, from a certified fair trade manufacturer. Even better have them made here. Why not use some of the energy of this movement to do that?
#6. To clarify you are saying no one should make more than 100,000?
#7. In some of the interviews I read they were self-describing as poor. Even some of the signs say I’m poor. You are correct, the true poor don’t have the resources to protest. Again that is why I fully support fair trade practices.
#8. I can’t get in the mind of anyone who would kill innocent people, so I can’t answer this question.
@NicoleFende
#4. I’m sure you do.
#5. Why not use the energy here for entrepreneurship? Because the game of capitalism is fixed. If you lose, you lose, and if you win, you lose your soul. Throw out the game.
#6. Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.
#7. Fair trade practices largely exist so that wealthy people (who deny that they’re wealthy, 9 times out of 10) can feel good about continuing with their consumerism. Also, your argument that “real” poor people live in shanties is disgusting. You’re saying that unless you’re completely voiceless and destitute, you shouldn’t complain. Nevermind the fact that as I mentioned, those people are, well, voiceless and destitute.
#8. You might try getting into the mindset of someone whose goal is not to be the dominant class. Terrorism is bad, sure. Murdering people is bad, innocent or not (and most bankers are not). That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try to understand someone’s motivations.
Also, claiming that you “straddle both worlds” because you recycle is absurd. Don’t fool yourself, Nicole: you are part of the problem.
@Aquameringue I agree that if I only did the recycling I would not straddle both worlds. Did you miss the part about voting with my dollar and choosing not to shop at certain large chains? In addition I’ve been an active advocate of fair trade for years, and when possible I will chose the more expensive fair trade option. All my virtual outsourcing is to others here in the US and I’ve written on my own blog why I do that.
@NicoleFende
Voting with your dollar? Really? Let’s say you grocery shop with fair trade practices. You’re giving, what, $200 per month to a farmer, then. You also mention you’re paying off your home to the bank. That probably comes to somewhere between $1000 and $2000 a month that you pay to the bank, most of it interest. Think about whose hands most of your money is really going to.
This is a disappointing post by someone clearly not “straddling both worlds”, lol. Instead of debunking the myths of the rally, you have instead proven the point of it.
@aphoppel I’m not 100% sure of that, Adrian. It seems to me that this post is contradiction some of the “all or nothing” rhetoric that the movement is spawning. While not everyone in the movement makes black-and-white statements, there are some who do.
@aphoppel Thanks for your comment Adrian. As I mentioned to Aquameringue did you not see that I am an active proponent of fair trade? That I do vote with my dollar?
When you say I prove the myths rather than debunk I would love a specific example. Thanks!
@NicoleFende
Nicole, being an active proponent of fair trade, or recycling, is great. But it does not absolve other sins, really; and I don’t mean to imply that your “other world”, as you called it, is a sin, but rather that if it is viewed that way by some, explaining that you do these other things doesn’t really make it OK to those who would take issue with the stock market, investment banking, and capitalism in general. It is disingenuous to imply such, just as it is disingenuous to imply that if you support one big business, you support all big business, and anything else is hypocritical or something. Saying “vote with your dollar” is a cliche that only has two outcomes: denying people access to tools and technology that a a small, local business can not provide if they do not buy from big business, or if they do buy using against them as a cheap shaming tool.
More to your request for an example, I would look at your position on #s 5 & 7:
@aphoppel Thanks Aphoppel. Here is where tone can be difficult online. I do not seem to have explained my opening well. I was simply trying to point out that I have a fairly well rounded perspective. I am absolutely not perfect. I don’t believe vote with your dollar is cliche, people do it all the time.
@NicoleFende
5 – To say that it is as simple as looking at looking at your household budget and not taking a loan you can’t afford; if you really believe that, if you can not see how predatory the banking industry was, preying on people who were not proficient or experienced at just that skill, I don’t know what else to say, except that your point of view is *exactly* what has people on the streets: you are disconnected with the reality of most people. I am sure you have a great deal of budgeting experience, and that seems easy to you. To most people, 5 years ago, if you went to a bank and the person in the suit in the fancy office said “we’ve reviewed your finances, and you are approved for this loan!” that was good enough; same with a credit card or car loan. There was a level of blind trust that people placed in banks. Whether that was smart or not is irrelevant. That the banks laughingly took advantage of that trust is fact.
@aphoppel We are closer than you think here. As I said in my original post, the Big Banks ABSOLUTELY bear some of the blame. They had aggressive policies with faulty (or completely absent) underwriting. Which is why I agree with the protesters that Too Big to Fail is BS.
However (and unfortunately) there is plenty of blame to go around. As Margie noted in another comment, many people were surprised they were approved.
@NicoleFende When someone is a victim, the you-should-have-known-better defense is, in my opinion, always flawed. I believe that is the point other posters were attempting to make as well. Of course some people were surprised, that is my point as well: if the big bank said you were good enough to get a loan, and you thought you weren’t, that is too much temptation for most people. The banks took advantage of that temptation, of the misplaced trust people had in financial institutions, and government oversight, that is why they are to blame.
@NicoleFende
7 – To be honest with you, this one made me throw up a little. To define poverty as an extreme third world situation, is to say to the poor in this country, basically, “it could be worse, so shut up.” Yes, it could be worse. And we could live in a country where women have to wear burkas and can not work, so we should not care about glass ceilings and gender discrimination in the workplace? We could live in a country where if you are from the other side of an imaginary border, your family is raped and tortured, so we should not care about race discrimination here in the US? That is a terrible, terrible position to take.
@aphoppel Here I think you put words into my mouth. I have never and would never say “it could be worse, so shut up.” Never, nor would i say any of the other things you mention above. Period.
@NicoleFende Well…OK. You gave your definition of poor in 7, when you said “Do you know what I call poor?”. How does that, at all, debunk or support a myth that the protestors are poor? You could very easily have pointed out that the participants are from a wide socioeconomic spectrum. You defined poor as something extreme, and what other conclusion is there for a reader to make except that if a person does not fit your definition, they are not poor? Maybe I bought a dozen cups of coffee from Starbucks and handed them out to people living on the streets – so they are not poor anymore? Maybe my organization collects and distributes use laptops to the poor to help them in a technologically driven society – if they are still on food stamps and living in a housing project, they are not poor anymore because I gave them a laptop?
In my opinion, your writing in this section dismissed poverty as something that if it is to the extreme example you described, it is not poverty. Which in my opinion is analogous to my other the other things I wrote.
@NicoleFende@aphoppel
The denial that some people are poor (based on what they consume), by the way, illustrates a desire to believe that people are more or less on even ground. Why insist on this belief? Because capitalism, in order to have a shred of ethics, presupposes it. It’s also why rich people never admit they’re rich. This means that rich people get to avoid being blamed for ruining the country. But what doing this also reveals is that everyone secretly knows that it’s morally (or at least socially) dubious to be rich. If it’s wrong, why do people try to do it? Greed is greed.
Margie, if that was what the post was about, perhaps the title should have been something more along the lines of “Debunking some of the things that some people may have said at Occupy Wall Street”. I feel that this post is just trying to whitewash the situation, and cherry pick a few easy targets to leave people with a sense that the movement is filled with people who are repeating things that are not true, and therefore can (continue to be?) dismissed my the media. Even if that were the title, I would still take issue with much of the post.
@aphoppel Ah, that is not how I read it at all – I think it does take issue with some of the things people are saying not to prove they’re dumb but just to keep some of the cold numerical facts out there. Perhaps the wording strays into areas that deflect from the main focus of the post, but I don’t think there’s any whitewashing here, at least to my eyes.
@margieclayman Allow me to put it a different way: It feels like a whitewash to me because the author attempts to establish herself as someone with a balanced point of view and then attempts to pigeonhole the movement into a nice set of easily dismissible “myths”. The post starts down that path with the title, and does not stray. It is not objective, really, at all. There is an easily made opposing view to each of the points, to the “cold hard facts”. I believe to be objective this post should have presented both sides, or else started off with something along the lines of “why an investment banker thinks this movement is silly” so that readers would not be, well misled seems harsh, but something along those lines. You’ve done a lot of hard work to build a platform for yourself that feels safe, I think, to your readers, and, to me, this post seems unsafe.
@aphoppel Well, it may be unsafe, but that’s part of why I was excited to have Nicole post it here. There is very little in the Blogosphere right now dedicated to this topic, yet clearly everyone you talk to has strong feelings about it. So what is going on there? Should we not talk about our feelings regarding where our country is going because we might disagree? That seems idiotic to me.
I think if we can converse, debate, and even disagree, but do it in such a way that no one is raked over the hot hot coals, then we are accomplishing two things. We’re starting a conversation AND we’re proving that civil disagreement can still happen, even here in the online world. I feel pretty good about that.
@margieclayman That’s not what I meant, Margie. … I am never opposed to conversation and civil disagreement. Nor I would ever suggest that we not talk about our feelings about our country — I probably talk about mine too much. I only take issue with what is, in my opinion, a thinly veiled rant against the movement, something that is clearly biased but wants to be read as the middle-ground. When I say it feels unsafe, it is because I do not expect those kind of shenanigans here. I can go to Fox News or MSNBC anytime I want to. If the post is going to lean toward one side, that is fine, but present it as such from the beginning, or I do not trust the writer. That’s all.
Also, there is a TON being written about this in the blogosphere, it just depends on which sphere you are reading I guess. Most of the mainstream stuff is still hoping it all just goes away, so that they are not called not he carpet for purposefully ignoring it.
@aphoppel I’ve heard that from a few folks but a pretty thorough Google search didn’t reveal much to me beyond Huffington Post.
As for Nicole, I can say she was not engaging in shenanigans. She had heard some of these things said and wanted to use her background to offer a different perspective. If I thought she was not being genuine, I would not have accepted the post here for your exact reasoning. I ain’t no fool 🙂
I worked for the Banking Industry on the Information and Corporate Governance side for many years as a consultant, auditor, it security and Risk management advisor. I have to say many of these things where in the making and many of these banking executives where playing with fire and later complained when they got burned.
Although I do agree that if you don’t want to support big business it creates a big sacrifice on our part. I mean I am an Apple fan and I use Apple to get my work done so it would be very difficult to detach from that. But it will come to a point where we might need to do these things to get our message clear and have companies shift towards fair trade.
Very informational post thanks!
@rj_c Thanks for your comment. I completely agree that there are bankers who played with fire, got burned and then complained. No one should be too big to fail.
Yes giving up purchasing from big business is a sacrifice, but if you really believe in something shouldn’t it be worth the sacrifice? (And I’m not saying anything about Apple per se, I’m simply saying that if you buy Apple you support big business). When I decided to stop shopping at certain chains I started spending more money for the same essentials. It was worth it.
@NicoleFende@rj_c
“When I decided to stop shopping at certain chains I started spending more money for the same essentials.” Must be nice to afford that. Too bad a lot of poor people feel they’re in a stranglehold.
@Aquameringue Hi there,
While I appreciate this is a passionate issue, I think you are straying a bit into the personal attack zone, and that is something that will not do anyone any good.
I think it’s clear that not everyone can afford to have choices, but that doesn’t make Nicole a bad person, nor does it mean that she is trying to rub it in the face of others. This is where the issue gets complex, because in these trying times, we are all in a no-win situation, no matter who we are or where we are in the societal stratosphere. If you can afford to make choices and you do, you’re a villain. If you shop at Wal-Mart, you’re a villain. If you pick your food carefully you’re a snob, if you buy junk food because it’s cheaper you’re a health ticking time bomb.
The overriding problem I think is that there is a distinct lack of interest in trying to find out where everyone is coming from. In this particular post, the Occupy Wall Street movement was analyzed from the financial perspective, and some of the things participants have said are being analyzed.
I’d welcome a retort from you on the subject, but please refrain from personal attacks.
@margieclayman
Genuine apologies. My point is that the choice to “vote with your dollar” is A.) something that comes with privilege, and B.) that big corporations are happy to give because the game is rigged.
@margieclayman
To expand on this one notch, not only do the poor have little choice in how to vote with their dollar, but those few choices are nearly all votes “for” the big capitalists. Especially in urban areas. A handful of well-meaning yuppies are not going to “outvote” the rich and the poor who both—if for different reasons—want to feed the machine.
understood, @Aquameringue and I appreciate the apology. Again, I understand the passion behind this subject, which is why I’m thrilled we’re able to converse about it here. I just don’t want it to become personal.
I think the real problem we are seeing is that people are very passionate about this issue. We’re angry and we don’t want to take it anymore. So some people stand up and act, they make claims, and because we want them to be true, we continue to spread those claimes, i.e. “I’m part of the 99%” which is all over Facebook. Numbers lie. a lot. we need to be careful how we perpetuate something like this by passing it around, just because it “feels good” and “must be true”. We might not be happy with big corporations and Wall Street, but that doesn’t make them the evil empire. Henry Blodget had a good overview of this the other day: http://www.businessinsider.com/occupy-wall-street-analyzing-their-list-of-demands-2011-10
@KenMueller Thanks for your comment Ken. I had not found the article by Henry Blodget, good read.
@KenMueller Couldn’t have said it better Ken!
@KenMueller
Saying that “well, people sure are worked up” does nothing but allow the situation to continue. It’s a stalling/equivocating tactic. And with every minute in which action is not taken, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. When the rich systemically squeeze the rest of the country into a corner, they call it capitalism; when anyone mentions that it’s getting awfully tight in this corner, they call it class warfare. *shrug* If that’s what it is, then so be it. The rich are the enemies of every sane American.
@KenMueller I wouldn’t trust what Henry Blodgett has to say.
From Wikipedia: “Henry Blodget (born 1966) is an American former equity research analyst, currently banned from the securities industry, who was senior Internet analyst for CIBC Oppenheimer during the dot-com bubble and the head of the global Internet research team at Merrill Lynch. Blodget is now the editor and CEO of The Business Insider, a business news and analysis site.”
“In 2003, he was charged with civil securities fraud by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission.[5] He agreed to a permanent ban from the securities industry and paid a $2 million fine plus a $2 million disgorgement.[6]”
Good job Nicole trying to debunk myths which is of course is not easy. Myths and half truths are so very dangerous and unfortunatley easier to comprehend than a complex answer. I am not saying that people who believe the myths aren’t smart, but I am saying they are looking for someone not themselves or their friends to blame. Blaming is much easier than fixing or even comprehending!@haralee
@Haralee
It’s true! Poor people only have themselves to blame! Conversely, all rich people deserve to be rich. It’s probably because they are better humans.
@Haralee
You seem to be saying that poor people only have themselves to blame. Do you really mean this? By extension, all rich people would then deserve to be rich. Careful with that social Darwinism, there…
dangerous is right, @Haralee , although I agree with @Aquameringue that we need to be careful about painting with a broad brush in any regard. I am sure there are some people out there who made some bad decisions and maybe still are making bad decisions, but there are also plenty of people who are working their butts off and aren’t getting to the rich category anytime soon (like me, say) 🙂
@Haralee Thanks for the comment Haralee. It IS a complex issue, one that has many facets that as we can see are difficult to distill into a blog post – much less a sound bit sign. I would love to see everyone pick one very specific issue and start taking steps to address it.
WOW! NIcole — what a huge task to tackle – debunking the myths! If anyone can do it – it is you!
What you say about what really is “poor” is certainly true. I think we have very skewed perceptions here of what exactly under-priveleged means…..
I also agree about the housing bubble – 2 words that I thought never went together – Jumbo and Mortgage.
Thanks for your time in discussing this issue – Rachel
@Rachel_Blaufeld Thanks for your comment Rachel. Yes Jumbo and Mortgage should be be ever put together.
The problem is that most of these people have a better understanding of the small details than even those that work “in the industry.” They understand each individual law that turned the tide, they understand how lobbyists and government is a revolving door, how every politician is in the pocket of wall street. Everything is connected. We’re all connected. While you seem to have a decent understanding of the Big Picture that’s not enough to make a call on this movement, because it has never been and will never be as simple as a Big Picture. An activist has to take the time to zoom in more closely because if they don’t, they’re not effective.
Plus, most of this is jumping the gun. Are they poor? No. But they understand they will soon be poor. And once they’re poor, dirt-poor, there isn’t much they can do. Truly poor people can’t afford to take a bus to wall street or be effective activists. So let’s not diss them for having enough means to be effective organizers, because we need them to be while they still can and while we all still can. And yeah, wall street isn’t the only problem. That doesn’t mean it’s not worth tackling. They’ve picked a major decisive issue and decided to tackle it. More power to them. Instead of hearing people bitch all the time that they’re not doing what they should be, well then go do something about it. They will welcome you with open arms and they will consider your opinion and weigh it in with everything else. Or start your own movement.
Things are the way they are with the movement because they can’t be any other way. If they didn’t use the internet and twitter and facebook they wouldn’t have much of a means of organizing. Half the people hating on OWS make fun of them for having a laptop or cell phone and the other half hate on them for not being more advanced. The bottom line is that people that feel threatened by this movement, as well they should, are angered by it and do what they have to to preserve their world view lest they realize they’ve been fucking up for decades and must now be saddled with the guilt. And I can’t even blame them.
I am really reluctant to chime in on this subject. I read Margie’s original post and Nicole’s comment to the original post, Nicole’s guest post and I think all of the comments to this point. Here is my disclaimer. I don’t know Nicole and I only know Margie on-line. I read Nicole’s bio and I think I can infer that Nicole became an actuarial and investment banker sometime in the late 90’s.
Investment banking did not really exist prior to the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act of 1999. The Glass-Steagall Act of 1933 was enacted after the 1929 crash. It was meant to prevent and control speculation in the banking industry. Glass-Steagall basically was done away with when Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act was signed.
I was a banker from 1969-1989…a Vice-President in consumer lending. I saw a lot, but we worked within the guidelines of the regulatory agencies and in my final year as a banker my gross pay was $42,000, VP for Fleet Bank. You remember them…they are now owned by Bank of America.
1989 was not a good year for banking. Remember the Keating Five? (John McCain was one of the five). The US created the Resolution Trust Corporation to deal with the savings and loan crisis in 1989. And I recall that just about the time that Fleet Bank was winding up their takeover of Indian Head Bank (1989)they decided to offer incentive pay for Mortgage Loan Officers. I remember remarking to my immediate boss at the time, “This cannot bode well for the banking industry.” He questioned my reasoning and I explained when a Mortgage Loan Officer becomes a commissioned sales person this is bound to affect their lending decisions.
All I would offer is this. Before any of us really discuss this current issue, the recession that continues…the unemployed, the underwater mortgages…get familiar with the history, not just the last 10-12 years, go back to 1929…by 1999 we were all busy with our lives, our careers, our children’s educations, supporting our parents, paying our taxes when congress passed Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. Funny fact, when the 2008 recession began, it was John McCain that said: “Let’s bring back Glass-Steagall Act of 1933!” Oh, how easy to think we could put the genie back in the bottle!
One more thought: Very easy for the big banks to adjust credit card interest rates…it is magical. They send a notice, tell you it is going to happen. And it does. My question is this? If they can do this with unsecured credit card debt, why not send a notice and say “By the way, we noticed you have been paying your mortgage on time and that the loan to value ratio is upside down. But to help you, we are going to adjust your fixed interest rate to the today’s current fixed rate!”
I have to get back to work. Thanks for listening.
Judy
@JudyHelfand A woman after my own heart. History is so essential to everything, everything going on today. Why don’t people embrace it?
@margieclayman@JudyHelfand Amen. My interest in and understanding of current events developed during a Jonathan Swift class I took in grad school. It was eery to see history repeating itself. It wasn’t that I didn’t keep track of current events prior to that class, but reading Swift gave me an entry point I didn’t have previously.
@Erin F.@margieclayman@JudyHelfand First Judy I appreciate your comment and perspective, while I know some of the history clearly you are able to give a much more detailed picture. I agree 100% that people writing loans should not be on commission, it is a recipe for disaster.
I agree that the banks could also do more to help people now. IMO when they got government money (which I again I was against) they should have been required to use it to drop interest rates.
@NicoleFende@Erin F.@margieclayman Thanks! I invite you to read about the savings and loan crisis of the 80’s. The problem is this was just one MORE crisis. The history of the S & Ls, formerly B & Ls, is really quite extraordinary. What I am trying to express, is that we, as a nation, seem to revisit the same types of scandals over and over again. It is exhausting. And most of it is the result of greed.
Credit cards are another interesting example. In 1978 shortly after I was hired by Crocker (later purchased by Wells Fargo) to be a Consumer Lender, I remember Citibank (think Citigroup) decided to issue credit cards to what seemed like hundreds of thousands of consumers across the United States. It seemed we all received one. Every card had the same effective date. And on that date consumers were in line at their local banks to get cash advances from these cards. I remember that day, as we ran short on cash at the Wilshire-Hauser branch of Crocker Bank! Keep in mind none of these consumers actually applied for the cards. The invitation came in the mail from a banking company that none of us had heard of prior to that time. Great! I myself receive three(3) invitations: one with my maiden name, one with my married name, one addressed to Mr J.C…., funny thing, the one addressed to Mr. offered a higher credit limit. I called them and told them I would accept that one! CITI lists this year in their history as such: Execu-Charge/Visa credit card program is inaugurated. Operating income increases to $74.6 million and receivables are $2.7 billion. Sadly most of the new credit card holders could not afford more debt or interest expense.
Judy
@JudyHelfand@Erin F.@margieclayman Ah yes S&L. You need to throw Enron in there too.
@margieclayman@JudyHelfand I think many do. The masses are underestimated by the apathy of recent times. I’m not so sure it’s apathy as it is defeat and impotence.
@Almost60Really@margieclayman@JudyHelfand I think denial has a lot to do with it. “It can’t happen to me”, “I’m going to be rich one day so don’t tax my upcoming group”.
@JudyHelfand I like your idea about lowering interest on the mortgages. The only bad thing is they will do the reverse when interest rates are rising or they decide it’s in their best interest (pun intended).
@Fierce_living That could be a fear; however, if the controlling factor would be the loan to value ratio…the interest rate would remain low. In other words they couldn’t adjust upward, unless the equity had been re-established, which would mean the real estate market was off of life-support. I love dreaming, can’t you tell?
@JudyHelfand Can’t believe you brought up all this history, but am eternally grateful. Very little changes, yet nothing stays the same.
But the minute we stop paying attention…the bad creeps back in. Good job, JH! 🙂
Sorry. I just couldn’t stare at this one any longer: “Are there Uber Wealth people in this country like Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Steve Jobs and Oprah Winfrey? You bet, and none of them were born billionaires. They’ve worked hard to create their empires.”
You’re implying that there’s some sort of connection between work and money. This is a conservative canard.
Nevermind for a moment the fact that there are people smarter than us and working harder than us who earn less money on account of having chosen careers like teaching. Steve Jobs’s wealth was at one point over $50 billion. He was about 45 years old at the time. That’s 25 years in which to build up that wealth, so we can put that at the gain of $2 billion per year. Let’s say I work for a nonprofit organization—fair trade advocacy, if you like—as a grant writer. For this, I had to go to school and earn a master’s degree in nonprofit management. I’d probably earn between 35k and 50k per year, tops. Let’s say 40k.
Now, Mr. Gates earned FIFTY.THOUSAND.TIMES more money than I do. Can you possibly, in any conceivable universe, reason that he worked fifty thousand times harder than I do? Or that he is fifty thousand times smarter than a grant writer? And don’t fall back on an answer that has something to do with social worth: in a world where sports players get what they get, it’s just not going to fly.
Also, most millionaires *do* come from wealthy families. Incidentally, Oprah aside, nearly all of them are white. Your defense is, well, indefensible.
@Aquameringue I think again that you are assigning meaning to this statement that isn’t there due to your thinking that this post is coming from a stalwart right-winger.
When I read this initially, I read it as, “Not all wealthy people are demonic. Some of them worked really really hard and deserve to enjoy it.” Not all wealthy people were born with silver spoons in their mouths, and not all wealthy people have gotten wealthy at the expense of others. Now many people on Wall Street fully admit that they got wealthy at the expense of others. I recall listening to the excellent Planet Money podcast where a former Wall Street guy was talking about how he would go to the bar after work and would live like a rock star because he was getting all of these loans in that should never have been approved. He can barely live with himself upon reflection.
But not all wealthy people are in that category, and I think that is what Nicole was trying to say there. This should not be a war against the rich, it should be a movement against the kinds of actions that created our current economic turmoil.
Now, how closely that’s all related gets to @JudyHelfand ‘s point. We all need to pull back and look at the ginormous global, socio-political and historical pictures to do this topic justice.
@margieclayman@JudyHelfand
I agree that Judy’s points were very good. I believe also that Nicole doesn’t consider herself to be a right-winger. On the contrary, she writes with the opinions that every corporate right-winger would love liberals to espouse.
As for a war on the rich versus a movement against a certain kind of action—well, it’s clear which of those two options the rich would prefer; one is a rightful threat against their control and the other is a milquetoast set of conditional safeguards.
I’m not sure what it means for someone to “deserve to enjoy” their wealth. And I really do suspect that most of the rich are demonic, inasmuch as the demonic is by nature unaware of its own evil: demons are servants (in this case unwitting) of the diabolical.
I’ve been trying to think of what I should say, and, to be truthful, I’ve been avoiding making a comment. I didn’t like these sorts of conversations in grad school, and I still don’t. It’s too easy to make things personal or to take them that way.
I haven’t followed this story in a meaningful way; I don’t even know what coverage it’s receiving in the news. I also don’t have a strong passion for either side, but I’m not exactly sure what those sides are. The protesters versus big banks and corporate America? The protesters against the rich? If those are the sides, I wouldn’t want to take one. I would be more interested in bridging the gap and creating a conversation that would be beneficial to both sides. I know that’s idealistic and unrealistic, but I think that’s where I would to position myself.
I’m not even sure what the movement is supposed to accomplish. I read several of the comments and saw one that said action needs to take place. I agree that action needs to happen, but I don’t think I can categorize a protest, as a protest in and of itself without any far-reaching aims, as “action.” It seems more like whining and complaining, which is understandable if pointless. Whining and complaining doesn’t usually lead to productivity; it usually leads to more whining and complaining.
@Erin F. Thanks for your comment Erin. I agree that action does need to take place, which is why I ended my post with a call for just that. Pick one specific issue, we don’t all have to pick the same one, and start taking concrete steps to address it. Even baby steps will at least start us in the right direction.
As much as I hate the process of answering in list form, it seemed the best way to do so without this becoming a post in and of itself. Debunk 2 In such a complex, worldwide, linked economy as we have today, saying one factor caused everything doesn’t deserve a response.
Debunk 3 misses 2 points out – 1. What percentage the 1% actually controls, now it’s the same in most countries but you would imagine the US would be more class mobile than others, it is not. 2. What real wages have done since the 70s, which is stagnate. Debunk 4 Wall Street is Satan and yet you didn’t work there but still consider yourself the devil incarnate? That’s not just taking poetic liberty, it’s adding geographical mobility to it too!
Debunk 5 Many of the people you see protesting are students, they don’t really have that much to be blamed for if they are just starting out along the consumer path. The US, like many developed countries has a huge problem with youth unemployment with 25% generally the accepted stat, which leaves the likelihood that the real figure is much more. When you get kids with few prospects and a good education, you’re going to get civil protests. Debunk 6 I don’t pretend to speak for the protestors but I would suspect that corporations not paying taxes, certainly not their fair share on profits and one look at News International’s books would prove this, not necessarily individuals would be high on their list of greivances. Look at what Bank of America did at the mere hint of being hacked by Lulz Sec, sold off portions of their business, hired a “first strike” team and now want to charge for the honour of having an account. Given that many observers are stating there will be a double dip recession, the charging for accounts could be seen as a recapitalisation move.
@NicWirtz Hi Nic, thanks for your comment. I agree that the forums are not necessarily the best or easiest way to manage such a difficult and complex topic.
Re Point 2 – I’m not sure who you are saying is making a blanket statement. The statement itself I got from the websites listed as well various signs you can view on Flickr.
Point 3 – I can’t speak to statistics outside the US as I don’t have easy access to a source that is credibly verifiable. However your statement that real wages have stagnated is false. Please refer to the link I provided. All the census information provided by the US has already been inflation adjusted. In other words, it shows true growth.
Point 4 – Most people I know would still consider my work part of Wall Street, and the firm I worked for had a presence on Wall Street. Plus I know a fair number of people with that experience as well.
Point 5 – In the US (again I can’t speak for other countries, I see you are British living in South America) the tween and teen market of disposal income is HUGE. To say they do not participate in consumerism is simply not true.
Point 6 – I would agree that there are definitely corporations that do not pay their fair share, just as there are some people who do not. Again, there are bad people / companies / whatever in every walk of life.
I don’t like the idea of all the new bank fees, and I certainly never intended to make this about defending them. Yet again I will say that I agree with the protesters we never should have bailed out the banks.
The fees (which I’m not defending) are actually to make up for lost revenue for other things, including laws aimed at addressing some of the problems discussed here. There are some excellent articles by the Wall Street Journal on this topic.
NicoleFende. #2 Would be on both sides of the equation, as you pointed out the banks did not create this mess, solely. Nor can their role be overlooked.
#3 This is for wages inside the US, posts such as http://www.becker-posner-blog.com/2010/04/american-wage-stagnationposner.html have wages stagnating from 1997. In actual terms they’ve fallen, inflation adjusted. This stagnation goes back to the 70s. Who am I to argue with the census? Although if there’s one body that has cause to claim that everything”s got better, the census would be near the top of the list. Exam results that claim kids are doing better every year would be up there too.
http://www.nikutai-to-kageboushi.com/discourse/uspovrty.html refers to the 1973 argument.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704828104576022002280730440.html indeed you are correct, the WSJ does have excellent articles on this topic!
“Real average hourly earnings (excluding fringe benefits) now stand roughly at 1974 levels. Yes, that’s right, no real increase in over 35 years.”
The huge problem is that for every stat to back your argument up, there is one to back mine so we end up at the typical online circular discourse that solves nothing.
#5 I didn’t say they don’t participate in consumerism, they’re just starting consumer life off. There’s a difference, of course, blaming kids for making decisions based off what highly-trained advertising adult executives make is an argument for another day.
I live in Central not South America where a huge percentage – 40+ live on under $2 a day.
The tween/teen age group’s disposable income will dry up if the parents lose their jobs or once they enter the work market and can’t find jobs.
@NicoleFende You don’t have to agree or not with which corporations don’t pay a fair share, their financial statements prove it. For example News Corporation paid 6% corporation tax on its $A 5.4 billion pre-tax profits in 1999. Somewhat bizarre for a company whose main interests are in countries where the corporation tax is 30% minimum.
“Research by The Times shows that FTSE-100 companies – Cadbury, Standard Chartered and British American Tobacco, which have a combined market capitalisation of £75 billion, employed almost 11,000 UK staff and generated more than £6 billion in global profits, – paid zero corporation tax in Britain last year.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/tax/article3965272.ece
I’m sure that happens in all countries, the threaten to redomicile the company abroad and paying taxes overseas whilst offsetting them against domestic taxes is not purely a British thing.
@NicWirtz@NicoleFende My guess is that most US companies have reincorporated overseas to avoid US taxes plus the usual shenanigans of tax loopholes etc. GE is a prime example. Moving profits around on the various subcorps of the main corp and they buy and sell to each other to hide the real source of income. Bermuda has one building with, what, 20,000 corporations in it? Please. No corporation is paying their fair share, but they want more and keep squeezing the middle class into becoming the lower class.
Here’s a good article on CEO Peer Pay and how it’s only going to get worse: http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/cozy-relationships-and-peer-benchmarking-send-ceos-pay-soaring/2011/09/22/gIQAgq8NJL_story.html
“The gap between what workers and top executives make helps explain why income inequality in the United States is reaching levels unseen since the Great Depression.
Since the 1970s, median pay for executives at the nation’s largest companies has more than quadrupled, even after adjusting for inflation, according to researchers. Over the same period, pay for a typical non-supervisory worker has dropped more than 10 percent, according to Bureau of Labor statistics.”
@MillerFinch@NicoleFende Similar stat is that average CEO pay in the 80s was 230 or so times the average worker, it’s now five figures and rising.
@NicWirtz@NicoleFende Totally out of control and getting worse.
Debunk 7 One photo doesn’t show anything about a protest, just as much as one photo should not encapsulate someone’s life. I’m actually not bothered what class the protestors are at, I’m just happy it started. Debunk 8 Who cares if Wall Street decides to go to war or not. They most certainly benefit from it! The mere fact that occupy… has basically become a franchise protest with more springing up worldwide shows that trying to categorise this as one problem or protesting about one thing is myopic at best. I return to the youth unemployment argument, if you have an educated population with few prospects, you have to expect there will be civil problems. Of course what is the height of hypocriscy is cheering on the Arab spring revolutions and criminalising protests in your own country. For all @NicoleFende ‘s protestations that she is worldwide and has worked for Fair Trade organisations, the post is hardly a reflection of her experiences of both sides of the equation, asides telling us what “real” poverty is. For balance’s sake a rebuttal offer to someone actually at the protests rather than us observers would be great, @margieclayman ?
@NicWirtz@margieclayman Again I appreciate you taking the time to comment.
I would say that I saw any number of signs on Flickr and if you search Google Images. I only listed a couple to try and stay succinct (too late 🙂 ).
Regarding #8 – I think this is a bit of circular logic. I should care who goes to war? But I should care about who might profit? My point is that if you want to stop a war you need to be in DC not on Wall Street.
Finally in regards to fair trade I would say that no I am not a perfect person, nor have I ever tried to claim I am one. Its not a cloak or a get out of jail free card. Whether you think my activity or claims are a sham or not I would challenge you to list the direct actions you *personally* have taken to reduce poverty or stop child labor. Maybe I am misguided, but at least I am trying.
@NicoleFende That’s a fair point on 7, still as we speak and I’m quoting from Democracy Now, “Similar occupation demonstrations are springing up in cities around the country from Austin, Texas; Knoxville, Tennessee; Chicago, Illinois; Denver, Colorado; some two dozen other locations in Florida and California, and more. Protests have also been organized internationally in Canada, Australia, Japan, Mexico and others. In Boston, as many 1,000 demonstrators gathered in Dewey Square last Friday, where they have been permitted to set up tents, many planning to stay indefinitely.”I think trying to narrow down who is doing the protesting gets more difficult the more people that protest. So what if poor aren’t protesting? A second recession would have horrific consequences worldwide and create an awful lot of poor people!Agree that you actually have to have a voice in DC for #8 but of all the companies to benefit from wars, it’s not so much having a voice in Washington that does it but special interests, lobbying and well placed friends. So even if you had a voice, you couldn’t do anything with it. I’d argue that’s something to protest against.As for your Fair Trade experience, I’m all for it, I also get to live in a country where I see extreme forms of poverty on a daily basis. I am ecstatic that you have had that experience but as other commentators have pointed out, that experience doesn’t come through in a post that reads more like a defence of those being protested about.
@NicWirtz@NicoleFende I would love to get other perspectives on this! I am delighted to have the conversation going here, and so long as we could keep it civil, absolutely would I welcome a retort. Bring it on!
@margieclayman I’ll see if I can find said perspective for you.
@NicWirtz@NicoleFende@margieclayman http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/occupy-wall-street-a-primer/2011/08/25/gIQAbX7oHL_blog.html
Check this Nic, in case you missed it. Liveblogging etc. “News from the Front” 😉
This is the Declaration of #OccupyWallStreet and what they want: (link: http://nycga.cc/2011/09/30/declaration-of-the-occupation-of-new-york-city/) I thought it worthy of copy/paste here directly since there seems to be doubt of what Occupy Wall Street – and now other locations around the country and even the world – actually wants to bring to light from their protests. Thank you for reading.
Declaration of the Occupation of New York CityPosted on September 30, 2011 by NYCGATHIS DOCUMENT WAS ACCEPTED BY THE NYC GENERAL ASSEMBLY ON SEPTEMBER 29, 2011TRANSLATIONS: FRENCH, SLOVAK, SPANISH, GERMAN, ITALIAN
As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.
As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.
.. more
the rest of it due to posting limitations:
They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.
They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.
They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.
They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.
They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals, and actively hide these practices.
They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.
They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.
They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.
They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.
They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.
They have sold our privacy as a commodity.
They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.
They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.
They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.
They have donated large sums of money to politicians, who are responsible for regulating them.
They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.
They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives or provide relief in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantial profit.
They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.
They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.
They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.
They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.
They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.
They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts. *
@MillerFinch Missed out “They have donated large sums of money to the policemen policing us.”
@NicWirtz Sorry, must have overlooked that in my character limit problem and copy/paste. But you are totally right, JP Morgan gave a boatload of bucks to NYPD. Corporate money has tainted law enforcement too. The behavior of law enforcement is a topic for another time.
@MillerFinch Oh no you didn’t miss it out, they did!
@NicWirtz Oh! I’m sure that will be in their addendum. The Declaration is most likely an ongoing document.
The final paragraphs of the Declaration. I could not append it below. PS Margie, this Livefyre thing stinks IMO.
To the people of the world,
We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.
Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.
To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.
Join us and make your voices heard!
*These grievances are not all-inclusive.
@MillerFinch Technical note: I have found that if you try to use Livefyre in IE8 it will throw an error message that says something like: Message exceeds allowed characters! For that reason, I go to FF if I need to leave a long comment. By the way, your information was very helpful. Thank you. Judy
@JudyHelfand I’m in Chrome and it said I exceeded characters. The other part of Livefyre I don’t like is the Facebook access even when not using Livefyre. I’ll try FF though and see if that helps. Thanks for the tip Judy, and I’m glad that you liked the Declaration info. The Henry Blodgett commentary on it (in another post below) just repeats the reason why this Declaration was written in the first place! He’s a Wall Streeter, so take anything he says in that light, plus the fact that he is banned from the securites industry for fraud in 2003.
@MillerFinch Hi Miller – I’m sorry you don’t like LiveFyre – I’m just testing it out and we’ll see how it works. I would say that your comment probably would not have worked in the other commenting system either – although I understand why you wanted to include the whole thing, a link still probably would have worked and would have saved you the headache. Thank you for hanging in there and leaving so much information for the conversation!
@margieclayman It was worth the headache of posting the whole thing! But I guess I didn’t realize that comments are limited in size, so OK, no biggie, lesson learned. I must say thank you to you too for your best wishes to me in my recovery from September’s hell, and for lighting my fire to get charged up and back in action again! This has been wonderful and I applaud you and Nicole Fende for posting this and having a great commentary going. Good stuff!
@margieclayman@MillerFinch Livefyre used to be so much better, the lack of character limit awareness is criminal and makes it virtually useless. As for the formatting, again, that used to be good too.
@NicWirtz@margieclayman Yes, it would be nice if the limit was posted ahead of time. I still don’t like the FB access at all times though that signing into it with FB allows. Perhaps an email sign in would be better?
@MillerFinch@margieclayman I moan tweeted Livefyre this afternoon, they’re “working on making the character limit more obvious”. Given each comment box has a large space to the left of the “Post to Twitter/Facebook” I’d recommend starting there.
@JudyHelfand@MillerFinch What’s FF? Dodo bird here. 🙂
@Almost60Really@JudyHelfand FF is Firefox. 🙂
@MillerFinch@JudyHelfand DUH! Of course it is. I was wrapped up in revolution and resistance. 😉 Hahah!
@Almost60Really@JudyHelfand We all have other priorities! 😀 Just kidding!
@JudyHelfand@MillerFinch There are MANY reasons that Livefyre is a bad idea:
1) It has character limits so you have to create multiple comments if you have anything expansive to say.
2) You have to log in to use it – and that doesn’t always work – which is the major reasons most serious bloggers hate it and other third party commenting systems.
3) If I understand correctly, the comments on YOUR blog aren’t IN your blog. That means you could lose them – and even more concerning – if they choose to censor the comments few would notice.
4) Unlike this post which is critical of Occupy Wall Street, the best post that is positive about it has had a broken Livefyre link that they have been aware of (because I notified them) for over FOUR HOURS. That means anyone sharing their comment or that post using the Livefyre sharing function is tweeting and sharing a link no one can see. That is just too coincidental for me to accept as “a glitch”.
I wrote about that and the dangers of censorship in my post about Blogging Ethics at http://www.growmap.com/blogging-ethics/
@MillerFinch Thanks for posting this. I struggled when doing the post because as I indicate above different sites are making claims to the stance, and the participants also seem to have different agendas.
I do think this list is fairly all encompassing of everything I came across, so again thanks for sharing it. Really you could write an entire book discussing all the items on it. There are some that everyone on this discussion appear to agree on, it would be great if we could channel all this energy to start tackling even just one.
@NicoleFende So many of the problems though emanate from one source, so taking one issue and tackling that is taking a butter knife to problems that need a major battle plan. And it’s always about Follow the Money.
Now we have the SCOTUS Citizen decision which has opened the floodgates of more money from corporations lobbying and donating to politicians and getting whatever they want. Politicians rely on corporate money for these out of control ongoing campaigns they wage the minute they win one election.
And corporations are sitting on piles of cash – trillions of dollars – to buy whomever they want. Why do they decry regulation and the politicians say yes, sir? The politicians have been bought, and one side more than the other I might add. This adds to the growing sense – and reality – of a corporate state where actual human beings are expendable and paid subpar wages. Henry Ford had it right – and he was a capitalist so I have nothing against capitalism per se – when he paid his workers enough money in order to buy the product they made. What does $10 an hour buy? Poverty.
We the people (actual humans) do not have the corporate kind of financial firepower to leverage, but we do have spirit and energy and a willingness to fight back in the only means available, in the streets. No, we aren’t living in Calcutta – yet – but must it get to that point before our voices are heard? No. We are mad as hell and not going to take it anymore – about everything, because everything now is tainted by corporate money from labor to food to health care – all the essentials to our lives. All of it needs fixing or the average American WILL be living in Calcutta, right in our own neighborhoods.
As an example, in the metro Atlanta county I live in, the Chamber of Commerce guy gave a presentation where studies were done showing that families in our county who made $25k per year or less increased, as did the families earning over $100k. The middle – the $30 -$90 lost ground. This story is repeated across the US. And that’s why people are pissed off.
@MillerFinch@NicoleFende Yep, there’s a huge amount of money, some of it printed quite recently, sloshing around the system. Be interesting to see what happens with it or if inflation eats it up. I saw one sign that said the 1% that want to share the $700 billion/trillion/gazillion tax breaks and will make the economy all better are living in Cuckoo Land. Think it was tied in with the fact no bankers were arrested for the first crash and all the arrests over the weekend.
@NicWirtz@NicoleFende Bankers keep on doing what they’ve always done, with no punishment to their actions. We bailed them out and they keep screwing us. Private profit and socialized salvation.
@NicoleFende@NicWirtz http://www.inquisitr.com/133805/ratigan-rant-goes-viral-as-dylan-ratigan-melts-down-on-air-video/
See Dylan Ratigan’s rant on corporate money in politics and how it must get out. He is my hero.
@MillerFinch Funny thing that his rant missed out but was on the verge of doing so, asides congress/senate being bought is that the US is pretty powerless to do anything against its creditors. No one can afford to go to war with China, it’s bankrupt the place and lose so much trade. <p>
I guess it harks back to @NicoleFende ‘s point about who started the wars? Who cares if you can’t afford them! <p>Another privatised profit/socialised risk scenario.
@MillerFinch@NicoleFende@NicWirtz Miller, I’m in with Dylan Ratigan’s movement as well. http://www.getmoneyout.com/ Have been from its first day. Nicole, although I said that I needed to start writing (in addition to the post I wrote days ago on OWS) I wasn’t saying that I haven’t been active. The Pseudo-Husband would in fact say that I’m far TOO involved with all this! 😉 I can’t leave it alone. My family lost its 3-generation-owned business this summer. Don’t assume that none of the people involved are otherwise active and not taking things seriously just because this movement (OWS) is a bit unfocused at this point. That will change and come clear. It does so more each day.
The biggest takeaway for Wall Street, multi-billionaires like the Koch Brothers, who buy our Congress, the White House, school boards and just about everthing else, and Washington, D.C. is this: the people are very near to rebellion about the fact that NOBODY is making moves to rectify the problems.
You’re simply assuming too much, Nicole, although I know you are well-meaning. 🙂 Coming from a generation that stopped a bloody and pointless war, I know some stuff, honestly. And OWS is a very, very good thing.
@MillerFinch@NicoleFende They have so much money that they can even go local in every tiny niche of the country: school board posts are being bought and sold. Hard to believe, and sickening. But true. I truly know.
@Almost60Really@NicoleFende True about the school board posts – we had the mayors of two adjoining towns front a guy who was on board with their tax district shenanigans. Thank God the opponent won, a woman who attended board meeting consistently for years and knew the true issues!
@NicoleFende@MillerFinch Trust me. (Tho why should you?) 😉
All kinds of people are channeling the energy. Don’t doubt it. I’m not sure why you do. Do you find all the people involved to be nobodies? They’re not. And many of the ‘nobodies’ per se are—going to be somebodies very soon. Don’t assume so much. That’s dangerous. 🙂
@MillerFinch Problem with the declaration is that it’s only for one Occupy, there are plans for more in about ten more cities and at least five other countries.
@NicWirtz I know! There’s one happening in Atlanta this weekend (where I am) and plenty of others across the US and the world. There is a real sense of solidarity to this movement, as democratic, sprawling and messy as it is. The Declaration though is from the origins of the movement in NYC and can be a framework or a sign-on to it by other groups. It does at least give a foundation from which to start if other cities/countries have other ideas. More power to them. And a big THANK YOU to you Nic for all your postings! Bravo! I was cheering you as I was reading them! Thank you!!
@MillerFinch I think what happened is twofold, this has shown how much the average person relies on mainstream media for their news. Mainstream media is owned by large companies, who may or may not pay all the taxes they should. <p>Hence it’s in their interests not to publicise the Occupiers. <p>Secondly, the majority of people that are aware of Occupy Wall Street have misjudged or underestimated those organising it. It would appear to be a democratic movement but more importantly, with Anonymous, with LulzSec, with everything that has gone on that has led to Antisec, they have gained experience in how to mass-organise.This is a global movement, it’s one that has the resources of a cross-section of society and it’s pretty damn annoyed!
@NicWirtz Yes, Main Stream media mostly played up the lack of mission statement and focused on the chaos of it, IF they wrote anything at all. The NY papers (tabloids) poo-poo’d the protesters and the NYTimes really didn’t do much. So Rupert and the others sat on their hands on this one, again, like politicians, corporate money rules and the product they issue.
Joe & Jane Average just think the protesters are kids and hippies, not realizing that these people are standing up for THEM. Too many people are in denial as to the true state of their affairs and buy into that their fortunes will turn and they, too, will be millionaires someday. NOT. Those days are pretty much over, at least at the state of current affairs. They will harp on those who get food stamps and the like, not realizing that one day they too may need that – yes – government assistance. If there is any government assistance left after the rightwing budget cutters beholden to corporate money and their tax loopholes gut the systems. BAH!
Yes, I hope this takes hold worldwide because the whole world is a mess. We are all interconnected. Europe is on the edge, China is ready to go next, and Iceland already melted down. God save us.
@MillerFinch Iceland got back up by not agreeing to pay back the money it owed, similar story to what Argentina did. On the other hand you have Greece kowtowing to what the World Bank/IMF demands of them and years of austerity measures which have done little to help the situation and the defaults on Greek loans are rumoured to be in the 55-60% range now. Conclusion – Ignore whatever the IMF says, default and start again.
@NicWirtz That sounds like a plan!
@MillerFinch@NicWirtz Going ON in St. Louis!!! 😀
@NicWirtz@MillerFinch St. Louis is working as we type 😉 on our declaration. Eventually, though, I foresee lots of causes uniting and coming together to make a bigger statement and impression. That’s how I view the very positive mix of people involved from all walks of life and economic levels.
@NicWirtz@MillerFinchTen? It is over 200 now and growing. See http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/04/1022722/-Occupy-Wall-Street:-List-and-map-of-over-200-US-solidarity-events-and-Facebook%C2%A0pages
@NicWirtz@MillerFinch And there are over 1300 Occupy Meetups – see http://www.meetup.com/occupytogether/
Just one last thing. Here’s a great WaPo link that has links to all things #OccupyWallStreet, info, liveblogging, etc. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/occupy-wall-street-a-primer/2011/08/25/gIQAbX7oHL_blog.html
I must admit I’m a bit mystified by the “dream post” description. I understand where the writer is coming from, being from Wall Street, but I found her post oddly off-target. She’s addressing “word” related targeting, rather that concepts and “battles.” The reason the goals are splintered is because things are in such a disaster zone now that something huge has to happen. Something small won’t do it.
I am 100% on the side of the #OccupyWallStreet folks, in addition to the #OccupySTL (St. Louis) people. I’ve been down there, interviewed them, and there is no doubt why people are there. It’s not an individual on Wall Street, in the way your dream poster seemed to take it. It’s about the fact that Wall Street and the banks sold an immense amount of bad mortgages (after promoting bad lending) (and bad borrowing to people who weren’t that literate to begin with, so weren’t equipped to dissect it and figure it out) (granted—their own fault; but the banks DID count on that idiocy).
Good grief, could I HAVE more parentheses? Prob’ly not! Actually, the post so appals me in its lack of even hearing the protesters that I must do something about it. Not sure what yet! But I’m pretty revved up. Tonight only edged me on further when I opened up @Zite on my iPad and found a plethora of posts (from pretty much acknowledged right wing sources) decrying the lack of purpose…and almost nothing explaining the situation. Looks like I’m going to have to crank up my keyboard!
Love ya, kid, and great stuff here. Too bad it got hijacked by the LiveFyre. Now I’m about to publish, so chances are I’ll be joining the LF chat too! 😀
@Almost60Really@zite Thanks for your comment. Although appalled wasn’t quite what I was going for, I’m glad you are inspired to take action. As I’ve said to other commentators we are not as far apart as everyone first assumes. There are injustices that do need to be addressed. However to do that you need to understand the whole issue and then prioritize.
The best analogy I can think of is someone who is seriously injured in a car accident is wheeled into the ER. The ER DR must understand all of the injuries, not just symptoms and then prioritize what to fix first. If you fix a broken leg but ignore the huge cut bleeding out you might have a corpse with a mended leg.
I look forward to reading your post, and strongly encourage you and everyone else to put forth solutions. Without solutions we are just spinning our wheels.
@NicoleFende Our country is the car wreck. It’s odd to me that you are unaware of it.
Best wishes. And no hard feelings whatsoever. Glad we had the chance to interact. 🙂
I am not sure how much conversation is going on here today. But I thought you would all like to see how the OWS group is restricted from using microphones and bullhorns. Pretty interesting. Watching a Rachel Maddow video: People’s mic speaks with one voice – http://on.msnbc.com/peMTUu Hope you can see the video.
Judy
I’m sorry this whole article is based on a biased, arrogant and ultimately ignorant reading of current affairs in America. But then again, why wouldn’t a former investment bank whitewash the effect of the housing crisis on the middle-class and poor. You can have your opinions but this is just a vanity piece that has zero serious research done on the movement you deride.
There is nothing more morally repugnant than to trivialize people’s suffering. You have a point that a lot of the early protestors weren’t themselves from the most suffering sections of our population but that is the problem isn’t it. Americans have been trading off the backs of third world countries (selling our souls) but that doesn’t mean we have to relinquish the tools that these conditions have produced.
Nicole, you wrote:
Myth #7: The Protestors are Poor
Do you know what I call poor? Living in a shanty town with no running water, an open sewer running right underneath the so-called walkway and food you hope hasn’t gone bad. Have you ever been to a place like that? I have, when I worked with fair trade groups in Asia.
Poor people don’t drink Starbucks, have laptops, use smart phones or wear designer clothes. Want proof? Just do a search online for #occupywallstreet images (or heck look at the picture above).
———-
Friend, you do not know anything about this. Many, MANY of us are regular old middle class citizens with all the accoutrements that you mention. But now we’re losing our houses, our jobs, our health insurance and our identity.
Dear friends who taught with me are homeless. They no longer have classrooms and they no longer have a plae to call home.
I will be homeless in a little less than two years, when my savings run out. I am afraid, I am scared, I am desperate, and I am helpless to change anything.
Having those fancy things you mention once everything else is gone is meaningless. For you to use this against the demonstrators is cheap and lazy research. Don’t compare us to third world countries, for in fact, we (theoretically) live in the land of plenty.
Except for the small problem, of course, that lots of my students are homeless, who didn’t used to be, and my brothers recently lost their business due to the shenanigans of Wall Street in 2008, and they were contributing members to both the economy and society since 1974. These are losers? Really??
Nicole, heaven help you when/if something goes wrong for you. All it takes in this day and age is a little glitch. A little happening. A little illness. A little injury.
If you, who has such a broad view of the economy are not aware of the current situation of far too many Americans, then I simply am speechless.
I know you mean well. But you simply don’t get how things are right now. It’s not about resenting one single Wall Street employee! I seriously doubt anyone has a grudge against you. But good heavens. Don’t you see our world?
Protesters don’t NEED to be among the sufferers. They are speaking for ALL Americans who are in a losing proposition.
I don’t know why I keep coming back here. Yet I feel compelled. You’ve gelled my thoughts. Thank you for that. 🙂
@Almost60Really Over the last three years I have heard countless tragedies retold, two weeks ago at a grocery an 82 year old woman tried to trade my mother money on a food card so she could buy medication for her husband, my 67 year old aunt’s money all goes to medication, my parents 401k was wiped out in 2008, came back a little but has been wiped out again, most of the jobs I used for to get for American telecommunication companies are in another country and for a kicker my oldest brother blew his head off less than six months after losing his home in 2008 and he was one of the stupid ones, the ones that took out a loan they shouldn’t have, please tell me again about abstract statistics.
Oh, Nicole,
I am very disappointed in this post which clearly reflects the fact that those born into comfort have absolutely no idea about the lives of those born into poverty.
Poor people who attend horrendous public schools are not taught anything about finance or banking or interest or debt and have no friends, relatives or co-workers who have taught them basic things like how to write a check and how compound interest works. Still you blame them for not realizing that the payments on the mortgage they just took out may DOUBLE or there is a balloon payment – oh and by the way with their credit they will NEVER qualify to refinance.
As Almost60Really points out, many FORMERLY comfortable ALMOST middle class (they thought they were – but they were really only a paycheck or two from homeless) still own brand name clothes and even the actually poor have cell phones (cheaper than land lines now and needed to call to get a ride or find a job) and computers (many cost under $50 used and you can often get one free) and buy designer clothes at the local good will.
This post proves you have no idea how the other more than half lives. I hope you read the comments, actually go out and MEET some ordinary Americans who weren’t born into the comfort you were and find some empathy.
I know many people from all walks of life in almost every country in the world and there is one thing that consistently jumps out at me. People who are born into families who have connections just don’t get it. When they say they have no money they mean LIQUID assets.
When regular people say they have no money they mean they literally have NO money: nothing in checking or savings – no investments – not a penny in their pockets. And before you blame them and say they SHOULD have savings and investments put a pencil to paper and figure out how someone who makes minimum wage or earns less now from working two or three jobs than they did when they had a career and a REAL pension (before CASH PENSIONS which – by the way – were ILLEGAL when over 200 corporations used them to steal retirements from their employees) can possibly keep a roof over their head, pay MANDATORY liability insurance (that benefits the INSURANCE COMPANY not them because it doesn’t even COVER their car) and eat and have ANYTHING left over to save.
Here’s a little experiment for you. Go somewhere where you know no one and have NOTHING and see how well YOU get on at figuring out where you can live and finding a job and saving money when you don’t have ANY RESOURCES to fall back on and NO CONNECTIONS who can help you out.
Before you respond that even poor people have friends, family, peers and co-workers remember that YES they do – but they’re all poor, too. They can’t help each other when they can barely feed themselves.
Those in the upper classes do not realize how their connections have created their success. I know one guy who is so clueless about the business he is in that he is on his FOURTH Thoroughbred Farm. The first three went bankrupt, but no problem because he has wealthy friends willing to invest in yet another one and buy horses from him. Meanwhile, the most brilliant breeders can barely give horses away because they don’t move in the circles where people have that level of disposable income.
When everyone you know has money it is far easier to succeed in business than when no one you know has money.
@GrowMap Hi Gail,
Many things you state here are personally aggressive rather than treating the issues or the main thrust of Occupy Wall Street. These are the kinds of comments that I do not like to see as they are gratuitous and unnecessary. We can debate without hurling insinuations, accusations, and other ations, non?
@margieclayman Hello Margie,
That was definitely not my intention. I truly believe that most people do not really understand how very different other’s lives are from their own. I did my best to clarify and elaborate in the post yesterday Why Small Business and Bloggers [And Everyone Else] Can NOT Ignore Economic Decline and Occupy Wall Street at http://www.growmap.com/small-business-economy-occupy-wall-street/
@GrowMap Hi Gail thanks for stopping by to comment. While I’m sorry to hear you are disappointed in my post, I appreciate that your feedback has galvanized me to point out a couple major false assumptions people are making about me.
To say I was born into comfort is laughable – all my grandparents were poor immigrants. I attended a small state run university that unless you are a hockey fan you’ve never heard of (Northern Michigan University – Go Cats!). I paid my own way through school with scholarships and working 30 hours a week while carrying a full load of courses.
I do know people who have been wiped out by a medical crisis, others who lost their jobs and did get to the point where they weren’t sure how to pay the bills, and even young adults struggling with finding work after finishing school. After the feedback on this article I asked each of them to read this and give me an honest assessment. All of them agreed with me, in particular regarding laying out a clear call to action.
Gail we have more in common than different, I don’t think the banks should get a free pass. I was against too big to fail. I do believe we need changes to correct social injustice. However we need two things to do it in a way to make things truly better. 1. We need a factual assessment of the current situation (I’ve sited very credible sources for the facts I stated) 2. We need to hone in on specifics and a specific plan. If everyone is trying to make a different change nothing will happen.
We’ve had offline discussions about Fair Trade, and my strong belief in it and why it is so critical. I know you are an incredibly smart and savvy businesswoman. Please share your specific thoughts on what should be the first order of business. I genuinely want to see the energy from this movement applied to make strong positive change.
While you and I were both able to work our way through college – I also worked almost full time, carried a full load of classes – and since I was a music major many of my classes required practicing and were only 1 unit – and when I wasn’t in class or at my job I worked in the factory my husband and his partner started.
But we have so many advantages over the majority of Americans. We had scholarships so we (or at least I) did not leave college in debt. My Father’s grandparents came through Ellis Island and settled in a German community. They had a strong work and study ethic that got passed down through his parents to him to me.
Both of my parents could read, write and do math so before I started school I already knew how to read. My Father took us to the library so I had the HUGE advantage of loving to read which I credit as the most important factor in my being able to succeed in life (not that my kind of success is for everyone).
We are both white and highly literate. Those two things alone give us a huge advantage that an enormous percentage of Americans simply don’t have. Imagine if our parents couldn’t read? While the public schools I attended were mediocre, they are a far cry better than inner city schools.
While not every teacher cared, they were better educated than many of the teachers today who are a product of the ever-declining mediocrity of American educational system. My fifth to sixth grade teacher was exceptional and I wonder how many inner city kids ever benefit from a teacher like Jaime Escalante, the “East Los Angeles high school teacher who taught the nation that inner-city students could master subjects as demanding as calculus and about whom the inspiring 1988 film “Stand and Deliver” was made.
Every time I hear someone criticize people for not understanding finance I ask them how THEY learned to write a check, balance a checkbook, or the dangers of debt. The schools don’t teach that. In every case their family made sure they knew. Many people have no one to warn them – they have to learn the hard way. I agree that people need to clearly understand the current situation – most – even those who aren’t being affected yet – do not. We can not have a specific plan that will work unless we accurately assess the cause – and most think they know but they’re incorrect.
As Mark Twain wrote, “It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so.”
I published a post that contains many resources for better understanding yesterday. I hope you’ll come by and read and comment at http://www.growmap.com/small-business-economy-occupy-wall-street/
This article is simply gibberish. There are soooo many things wrong with this article that it would take me days to debunk each and every one. How about this silly stat? “Families making less than $25,000 per year dropped from 29.9% in 1967 to 24.9% in 2009. That is a 16.7% drop.” Clueless is an accurate way to describe this statement. According to the inflation calculator at CPI $25,000 in 1967 had the same buying power as $169,569.61 in 2011 dollars. This article isn’t wroth reading any further when the points made are so inaccurate. This is simply another case of a well-off ignoring 50 million US citizens living in poverty, 50 million healthcare uninsured, 50 million on food stamps, 30 million un- and underemployed, etc. She probably hasn’t talked to anyone with those issues in her lifetime fo shopping at Whole Foods.
@Layofflist Hi there. Again your statements are hedging towards personal attacks rather than treating the issue, and I cannot let that stand here.
Also, if you want to be this combative, it is best practice to do so with your real name. It is not fair to attack someone and hide behind an anonymous handle while doing so – not that I’m inviting you to go on the offensive any more.
My apologies for what appears like a somewhat insensitive response, but I see so many inaccurate descriptions and comments about how good things really are, when in reality, the situation is dire for millions. I thought my profile included my twitter account @layofflist. (Mike Thornton)
As far as personal attacks, I don’t feel as if I made any toward you, except for calling you well-off and a Whole Foods shopper. That may be snarky or sarcastic, but it’s not an attack. I stated the facts assertively. I don’t know how you can expect to write something so one-sided and then wonder why someone fires back.
Here’s a fact you may want to consider. There are 2.5 million US households with income greater than $250,000. There are nearly 30 million un- and underemployed. Which group gets the most attention? Those making more than $250,000.
Here’s another fact: US is 52 out of 125 countries in income equality. US is nestled between Senegal and Turkmenistan. Here’s another “The United States is the country with the highest inequality level and poverty rate across the OECD, Mexico and Turkey excepted. Since 2000, income inequality has increased rapidly, continuing a long-term trend that goes back to the 1970.” http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/47/2/41528678.pdf
Additionally, in America 1 in 7 live in poverty, 1 in 5 children live in poverty (you can have a refrigerator and be poor), 1 in 5 don’t have health insurance, 1 in 5 workers are unemployed/underemployed, 1 in 7 are mortgage delinquent, 2/3 live paycheck to paycheck, 46 million are using food stamps.
I think that’s enough for OWS to be motivated. I’d be glad to offer you some additional information regarding your above statements. I was glad to see you opposed the bankster bailout.
@Layofflist There are a few things you are missing in your haste, Mike.
First, I did not write this post. It’s a guest post.
Second, in missing that fact, you have also missed that you do not really know anything about Nicole (the author) or me. There is a lot of weight in saying that someone is well off when in fact that may be far from the truth (and well-off is one of the most relative terms anyway. A person with no roof of their head longs for one with just a few holes).
Third, I have written a post with my own thoughts about Occupy Wall Street which you would probably find more in line with your own.
I think you have a lot of great information to offer and a lot of passion, but your tonality makes me not want to read what you have to say, and I think that’s a shame for both of us.
@margieclayman My reply was to whoever wrote the piece. Your reply made me think you were in support of the article. The tone of Fende’s piece was what prompted me to reply. The piece is slanted and contains errors and omissions that deserve rebuttal. I will take a look at your piece for your thoughts on the OWS matter. My tone may not be appealing to some, but the facts that I offer refute most of Fende’s ill-conceived, shallow opinions. I heard so many people blame the unemployed for being unemployed, the poor for being poor and Social Security recipients for being mooches that it gets tiring. It’s easy to defend the wealthy, as Fende does so well, but defending the poor and less fortunate takes effort.
@Layofflist@margieclayman Thank you for taking the time to post your comments. Please note that I have never blamed the poor for being poor or SS recipients for being mooches. In fact I have been an active proponent of fair trade (whose very tenants are paying people livable wages and stamping out child labor) for a decade.
Also I don’t shop at Whole Foods – not even sure how that one came into the conversation. LOL.
I actually have a degree in Math and am a credentialed actuary, which means that I know all the ways to dice and slice numbers, including those to get a slant desired. The OECD link you provide is mixing apples and oranges, alternating between household income and an individual’s income which are very different. While I can’t speak for other countries, I have examined the US Data carefully (link to original data provided above) and it does not support all the claims they are making. If you would like to really dig into all the statistics a live dialogue is really the best way, since they can be tricky in the best of times.
Ironically enough the link you provide actually supports my stance in Myth #3.
While I would love to have the original data for your other statistics I will say that not a single child should be living in poverty. I am a mother, and I cannot imagine my child going hungry. That is why (again – read all my responses below) I am asking what is one specific goal of #occupywallstreet that perhaps we can all get behind and what are some specific next steps?
@NicoleFende@margieclayman Thank you for your measured reply, Nicole. When it comes to US data, I wouldn’t be so confident. You can read my report on unemployment numbers at AlterNet.org http://bit.ly/p9Sflr. I would be glad to discuss the numbers I posted with you, since they are often ignored by main stream media and politicos.
One goal of OWS is to take big money out of elections and to receive justice for the financial crimes of the banking cartel. During the S&L crisis of the 1990s hundreds of banksters went to jail, but not one corrupt banker has been sent to jail for a more massive fraud perpetrated during this most recent financial crisis.
Both parties are to blame for the current financial mess, since they have both been purchased by the banks. As Sen. Durbin put so frankly, “And the banks — hard to believe in a time when we’re facing a banking crisis that many of the banks created — are still the most powerful lobby on Capitol Hill. And they frankly own the place.” I think we can all agree on that statement.
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